I’m expecting less than 1095 but more than O1. ... (Knife Steel Nerds) that is as “scientific” as anything out there...the gist of … This would be my guess as to why O1 tested a bit lower than 1095; the two steels probably perform similarly but due to experimental variability or some small unknown factors the O1 slightly underperformed. AEB-L is the same as 13C26. After I heat treated and surface ground all of the blanks, I shipped them to knifemaker Shawn Houston of Triple B Handmade (Big Brown Bear) who ground the bevels and put the initial edge on the knives. My point is simply that sometimes some steels (with ht & knife design being equal) are simply better than others at certain tasks and this data suggests aogami isn’t as good as most on this list. It is also difficult to avoid high levels of retained austenite when heat treating them. Heat treat, blade geometry, the job at hand, and the sharpening of the blade all play a massive role in the performance of the steel. All of the low alloy steels were quenched in Parks 50 oil and all of the high alloy steels were “plate quenched” between 1″ thick aluminum plates. So I decided to make a simple test knife design which utilizes a rectangular shape (straight edge so curves do not affect cutting) with a consistent primary bevel and edge thickness. I enjoy all of your reading all of your work, but this article is particularly amazing. I really like your style of writing combined with the way you present the facts as well as opinions separately. Snap-off blades work great for this task. Great job and send all our respectful and grateful thoughts to your amazing and supportive wife. There are frequent discussions online about how heat treatment is more important than steel choice. They got nearly the same TCC with handsharpened Global blades as you did with REX 121… ? I am some what of a steel nerd so when I realized that Spyderco offers many different high end steel options I felt like a kid in a candy store. Also, do you think a less aggressive test media might favor different attributes that contribute to edge retention? Not according to Crucible’s data, and doubly so if the Rex 45 is at higher hardness. Who would have thought that alloys designed specifically for manufactured knives would work so well in that role, versus weird super-alloys conscripted into service by steel nerds (whom I love). When I tested my first group of plane irons and produced a data set, there was some static from a subset of folks who believe firmly that the purest tamahagane will outlast everything, and the purer blade steels (shirogami/aogami) are right on their heels if forged and then everything else is later. I don’t really know the reason for this reduced edge retention compared with S90V. Several parts of the machine were damaged in shipping and I was not sure if I would be able to get it working again. I tempered the cryo steel a bit higher (500 vs 400°F) to try to get the hardness the same but ended up overshooting and the cryo knife was actually softer. There are a series of “rewards” that are specified at the different levels which include: gaining early access to articles, having your questions answered on the website, become a voting member of Knife Steel Nerds to provide input on future research, and a Knife Steel Nerds mug. CD#1 is the same as Z-Tuff. All these worries are out the window with the Waypoint. Perhaps it was enough to make the cementite harder than the silica in the paper. I have knives in such a vast array of steels it would be hard to list them all but maxamet, k390, s90v, rex121, rex45 are among them. Cutting abilityA distant third factor is ease of sharpening, but it isn't too difficult to put a good edge on any steel using modern sharpening tools. Another factor is that a significantly lower austenitizing temperature would be required for the 400°F condition to achieve the same hardness as the 1000°F, at which point the edge retention may be identical because less carbide would be dissolved at the lower austenitizing temperature. It’s a totally reasonable estimate and I agree with you there are far more interesting things to test! Thanks to Michael Poor and Connor Kaspar for becoming Knife Steel Nerds Patreon supporters!. For this study I use a guided system to maintain precise edge angles. My question is this: since you didn’t test 1084 (I totally understand why, there’s little variation in the LA steels), could you give an estimate on the edge retention of it compared to 1095 or O1? And we will hopefully add more steels and look at other things in the future. [6] Samal, P., and J. Newkirk. I see that you didn’t have Rex 45 or equivalent to test. Also the paper comes loose as 10mm wide strips, and they must be stacked together by hand and inserted into the machine which is somewhat tedious. This value came from a previous article where an average difference of 15.8 mm paper cut per 1 Rc was found. I thought it was there because it wasn’t one of the ones listed as not having a sample for. This can be seen in the previous charts showing that the steels with only vanadium carbide have higher edge retention for a given amount of carbide. Your email address will not be published. I would like to know if the toughness of S90V is even lower than M390/20CV/204P based on your latest update. For example, I have seen some papers report a hardness of 1800 Hv for M6C rather than 1400, which might be a better result as I will discuss below. Vanax has a similar amount of chromium and vanadium carbonitrides when compared with S30V with its chromium and vanadium carbides. (https://www.messerforum.net/showthread.php?141035-Schnitthaltigkeit-Z%E4higkeit-Rosttr%E4gheit-Drei-Hitlisten/page7) He than cut multiple things like cardboard, paper, wood, vegetables ,meat, … So a 400 grit stone was chosen to use a finish which is more optimized for slicing without going crazy with something very coarse like 120 grit which is somewhat unlikely to be used by most knife owners. Unlike when slicing, with push cutting, a higher polish is superior because of the higher potential sharpness and the reduced resistance when pushing the knife through the material. Ability to retain a sharp edge 2. Keep up the great work. This article felt long and convoluted with all the things that need discussing. A plate quench is a bit faster than cooling in air (despite the steels being “air hardening”) and the plates help keep the steel flat. The resulting sharpness was checked with the Edge on Up tester to ensure the knife was measured as no higher than 150g with the BESS media. Part 3 is the most relevant to this discussion as it covers differences in wear resistance from cryo. This may be because of the 100°F higher austenitizing temperature which leads to more carbide dissolution. I also picked an arbitrary sharpness level and compared steels that way instead, for number of cuts to reach that level. Part 1 and Part 2 – analysis of a large CATRA dataset from a major knife manufacturer. Do you mind sharing the complete dataset? It could be that with the cementite being softer than silica that the cementite is not improving edge retention. Stainless steels AEB-L, 14C28N and LC200N are pretty balanced at the lower end of the edge retention spectrum but most of the other stainless steels top out at relatively low toughness which limits their properties when compared to the non-stainless steels. Certainly nothing to the extent of 3x or 6.5x improvements in wear resistance. S35VN, 14C28N, and AEB-L are easier to heat treat and can reach higher hardness levels (63+) if that is desired over the higher corrosion resistance. Sorry rubbish … They did not say anything about grit or geometrie, but at least a Global has a worse geometry for test`s like this. Instead, these tests confirmed that the AEB-L performs as expected based on its chromium carbide content and the steel does relatively well given its good toughness. I joke I joke. Nitro-V was similar to AEB-L as I predicted in my article on that steel. The dataset used for those predictions had very few high speed steels which is also the case with this dataset. We will be able to test that better if we are able to test Vancron. I’ll admit, I’m a simpleton. Your articles (and Shawn’s and Roman’s Youtube vids) have helped me understand the role of processing costs as part of retail price, as well-done Sandvik knives from big companies like Real Steel seem “too cheap” compared to other models using steels that are wastefully inefficient to process. How many tempering cycles were done in case of high speed steels (M2, CPM-M4)? M390 vs S110V: I have a knife with M390. In this case the non-cryo knife had somewhat superior edge retention because it was somewhat harder. I asked if they could pay me with the old CATRA tester rather than with money. I also tested XHP in plane irons and it just simply lasted twice as long in clean wood as blue 1, and its behavior was better. We decided on a 400 grit (40 micron) “metallic bonded” CBN stone, meaning the CBN abrasive is throughout a metallic matrix rather than a CBN coating over a plate. However, the 0.1% nitrogen in 14C28N is not enough to lead to a significant change to the chromium carbides. TCC (mm) = -157 + 15.8*Hardness (Rc) – 17.8*EdgeAngle(°) + 11.2*CrC(%) + 14.6*CrVC(%) + 26.2*MC(%) + 9.5*M6C(%) + 20.9*MN(%) + 19.4*CrN(%). Another point in favor of the hypothesis that cementite is softer than silica is the fact that 52100 performed a bit better than most of the other low alloy steels. Can CATRA Predict Rope Cutting Performance? The only steel which isn’t a low-chromium vanadium-alloyed powder metallurgy steel is 8670 which has very high toughness but relatively poor edge retention. These all favor wear resistance more so than the previously mentioned steels, but lack in overall strength. I believe this is what it is referencing. I am mainly interested in the toughness/edge retention relationships involved with different steel compositions. I recently bought a folding knife with an M390 blade from a reputable manufacturer that took on some small chips cutting through cardboard on top of a cutting mat. After 120 strokes (60 back and forth “cycles”) the test is complete and the total amount of paper is added up, called the Total Cardstock Cut (TCC) reported in mm. Using different edge geometries in particular makes comparisons about steel or heat treatment almost impossible. Because my experience with heat treating each steel varies, and there is always some variation in hardness, the resulting hardness for most steels was between 60 and 63 Rc. Once again, a great article Larrin! This study alone was about $12k, and there is no way I could have justified spending that much on knife testing by myself. Hey Larrin, Great work. The relative position of the low alloy steels wouldn’t change much vs other steels, however, as the softer carbide still contributes less to edge retention. Shame. If he is making push cuts then the coarse edge is a poor choice. AEB-L actually did better than I thought despite being near the bottom of the chart. The biggest differences in ease in sharpening were instead with burr removal. However, thickness behind the edge, the angle of the “primary bevel” behind the edge, and the shape of the edge can all affect the result. The use of very hard CBN (cubic boron nitride) helps when sharpening steels with high hardness carbides like vanadium carbide which are harder than aluminum oxide, the most common abrasive used in sharpening stones. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. https://www.patreon.com/Knifesteelnerds, Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window). The CATRA test results in extremely dull edges, you can run your finger along the edges with no fear of being cut. The steels with low scores also dulled faster so the trends end up being the same just with more scatter in the results because the tests are shorter and because individual cuts vary within some window for a given level of cutting ability. I also used the toughness value of Maxamet for Z-Max despite being different steels because they are in a similar class of steel and the very high hardness steels don’t vary much. Greater amounts of carbide means lower toughness, while the hardness of carbide has little or no effect on toughness. But if the cryo led to a 3x increase in wear resistance a 1.3 Rc difference should be easily overcome. There are probably others I’m forgetting but hopefully that’s enough for now. And there is one particularly influential article that found that a 36 hour cryo treatment led to the best improvement in wear resistance [8]. so After this, are you still recommending CruForgeV as the more abrasion resistant low alloy alternative to 52100? I like white and blue 1 in knives, but can’t deny they don’t test that well. to recommend them over 52100. In the CPM-154/154CM CATRA article we compared cryo vs non-cryo and no difference was found, but that was with high temperature tempering (~1000°F) which some claim does not result in an improvement from cryo. However, I am going to talk about a few specific ones. K390_Diagramm2.jpg Alongside edge geometry and design, blade steel is a critical element that determines how a knife performs. I am interested to see your upcoming article on the toughness of M390. Blue Super, 1.2442, etc. A couple circuit boards had come loose leading to improper readings. 14c28n is stainless, tougher, cheaper, and is better at cutting card stock:) Most sharpening difficulties arise when you need to remove a substantial amount of metal when thinning a bevel or repairing a severely damaged edge. I took the measured toughness for each steel and shifted the values slightly based on the hardness differences between the toughness and edge retention specimens. The edge finish is dictated by the type of cutting, and the edge angle is dictated by the steel and heat treatment and the user and his cutting. How do you think the results would differ, if instead, the test was done to a specific BESS rating (maybe around 600 or so)? i wish you luck finding another material with a test result confirmed abrasive content i hope you do. I can t personally judge the tendencies for chipping. Find the best type of knife steel for your knife making project. More great results for boring, cheap-as-chips Sandvik steels (and their analogues). I was surprised to say the least! In other words, it records how much paper is cut with each stroke. Edit 11/19/2020: Since the release of this article I have experimentally evaluated M398, which you can read about here.. Bohler has recently released a new stainless powder metallurgy steel – M398, I first learned about it here.This is a modification of their older PM stainless … I've enjoyed several of the Knife Steel Nerds articles. The history of Vanadis 8 goes back a lot further than just the steel itself, really we have to know the history of 10V to know all of the background that is relevant. They line up with my experience as well. Then Amazon sent me the wrong one. For some reason, Spyderco customers seem to have a greater interest in the different flavors of steel than many others. Michael Zieba Pro EDC Balisong Butterfly Knife 3.875" M390 Blade … (8) In Stock. Is it there or am I just blind? CATRA testing media seems good for taking an edge from sharp to very dull, but it appears to lack some resolution that would be helpful for people who don’t let their knives get that dull. Surprisingly, LC200N and 14C28N did a small notch better than AEB-L and Nitro-V. LC200N does have chromium nitrides or at least “carbonitrides” rather than chromium carbides so perhaps those are higher in hardness leading to somewhat better edge retention. 8670 is a good choice for high toughness and 52100 has a decent balance of toughness and edge retention. It would be interesting to see if the edge retention performance evens out relative to the high vanadium carbine steels, after the grind is optimized for each steel. Neither Global nor Boehler Uddeholm say anything about the grit finish of their blades. I have the knife ready to test now. The knife cuts into the paper which allows the head to lower, the distance the head lowers is recorded for every “cut” of the knife. Stainless steels aren’t inherently worse but the high corrosion resistance requirement puts restrictions on steel design that are difficult to overcome. acero sueco…lo mejor de lo mejor, por ello sheffield importaba siglo XIX acero sueco !! I spent a lot of time looking at individual curves, of course. One of the tiniest knives in Spyderco’s lineup, the Ladybug 3 is getting in on the high performance steel action with a K390 version. K390: C 2.45 Cr 4.15 Co 2 Mo 3.75 Si .55 W 1 V 9 It’s almost like a non stainless version of CPM S110V. The 1/8″ hole was used for convenience such as to thread wire through before dipping in liquid nitrogen in the heat treatment process. While consulting for a knife manufacturer, I learned that they had recently replaced their CATRA edge retention tester because the old one had given them some problems. Over the course of this blog, we’ve looked a lot of knives and everything around them, such as locking functions, blade shapes, sheaths and so on. However, even when holding sharpening constant there are other important properties, such as toughness, ease in sharpening, corrosion resistance, etc. After all, sharpening in terms of grit finish and edge angle have a greater effect on performance than steel choice. This is really a step stone in scientific cutlery approach and I am sure not only amateurs will study it closely… In my Part 3 article I concluded that those cryo articles “are not very convincing” when talking about wear resistance improvements and after doing a study myself I am even less convinced. It is more likely that the negative trend is random within the variation inherent in the test. Nickel steel is used to produce the bright contrast needed for making Damascus-style steel. The spyderco "edge steel" thread is worth reading. Out of stock. Thanks to Trevor Welch, Theo N, Guns N’ Loaded, EV.Knives, Erik Coccia, Francisco J. Neto, Tristan, Gareth Chen, Alvise Miotti Bettanini, Henjie Taguinod, ben horridge, Steven, and Ian Miller for becoming Knife Steel Nerds Patreon supporters!. Do you think this is caused by some subcontious bias, statistical fluctuation, “human hand vs machine” reasons, or just other factors that are not regarded in the CATRA test? We are now over 100 supporters! We sharpened the knives to 30° (15 dps). Compare. I thought they would do closer to the 400-450 mm range based on reports of wear resistance of the similar F2 steel in the old Tool Steels book. However, it is a bit puzzling that the cementite isn’t contributing to edge retention at all. I can only use it for a few minutes before it cuts noticeably worse, whereas I can whittle all day with a k390 knife and it still leaves polished cuts (and shaves, much to my surprise) Typically, I will burn through the first inch or so in the stack to make sure that section of paper has been pressed together several times by the cylinder. For example, many of those reporting edge retention experiments are limited to what knives are commercially available which means they have little control over heat treatment and edge geometry. Less carbide means lower edge retention as discussed ad nauseam in this article so far. With online translation and some missing information it is hard to make an assessment. One is using a consistent knife design to eliminate the effects of different edge geometries and knife designs. There the knife with the fine finished edge and higher angle outperformed the other one, what it contrary to your findings (better edge retention with coarser finish and lower angle). simply the best article for me to date . Only so much time in the world. The head of the machine was damaged and several parts needed to be straightened before it would function. The data could be analyzed to determine the number of cuts it takes to an arbitrary level of sharpness. Cruwear, S90V, and AEB-L really stood out to me in this article. Also the edge geometry in all 3 tests is probably completely different. I expected a bit more separation between 4V and CPM-CruWear because the two have similar carbide content, but 4V is entirely vanadium carbide while CPM-CruWear has a mix between the two. I'd say it does slightly better than VG-10. I would surmise that most users would want to keep a relatively keen paper slicing edge that could be maintained with stropping and a touch-up on stones every once in a while vs. the completely dulled edge that CATRA testing creates. Vanax has a pretty good edge retention-toughness balance while also having excellent corrosion resistance, as does LC200N. Unfortunately the 440C toughness specimens I was going to test were ruined in machining. Shop thousands of quality pocket knives from all the top knife brands including Benchmade, Spyderco, CRKT Cold Steel and more! Bravo! And different knife companies will heat treat steels to different hardness levels using different heat treatment parameters such as some using cryogenic processing and others not. [7] https://thecbm.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Tool-and-die-life-2-March-2016-Uddeholm-Tool-steel-selection-for-AHSS.pdf. Unfortunately, we don’t have toughness values for S60V, S90V, or S125V, so the upper end of edge retention isn’t well represented in the chart. I have tested the toughness for all but 7 of the steels: Z-Max, BD1N, K390, S125V, S90V, S60V, and Vanadis 8. All Rights Reserved, All the goodness of your standard PM2 with a dollop of extra wear resistance in the K390 blade, Remains a bit awkward to carry and the minor issues present with all PM’s still exist. At this point I haven’t measured enough of an improvement in edge retention with the vanadium/tungsten-alloyed steels like 1.2519, CruForgeV, 1.2562. Some will argue that toughness is not important in folders or fine slicing knives and feel that only edge retention matters in that case because they don’t use their knives in aggressive ways which are likely to lead to chipping. Us true knife nerds know the feeling of carrying M4 or K390 steel blades. There were also big CATRA datasets I wrote about in the previously linked articles. A cryo treatment can reduce retained austenite and increase hardness somewhat which can improve edge retention. There are occasionally outlandish claims about the effects of cryo on wear resistance, like 6.5x the wear resistance just by using a cryo treatment. I like them because they sharpen easily and feel sharp/crisp. Some steels which were also expected to have relatively high retained austenite like Vanax also were relatively difficult to deburr. I’ve seen the same testing and using japanese tools with blue 1 and blue super. This is simply the most exhaustive study made available to the public without any commercial bias. These values are normalized to 61 Rc by using the 15.8*Rc regression. Obviously the context was regards to peer steels. And for an easier view of the relative edge retention of each steel I have a chart below. ... Larrin's knife steel nerds website has gone a long way to providing insight and answers and his Patreon has a lot of good info too. I will address these along with other small deviations below. A modified heat treatment for reduced retained austenite would be expected to lead to greater ease in sharpening, though sharpening to higher polish where the burr size is reduced would also help. Non-stainless vanadium-alloyed powder metallurgy steels tend to have the best balance of toughness and edge retention such as CD#1/Z-Tuff, CPM-3V, CPM-CruWear, and CPM-10V. When I asked CATRA about the size of the silica they gave me the following size distribution. In general, steels with higher vanadium did better, as expected. 1) Tungsten is a very heavy element so even 3% tungsten only results in a little under 2% WC. The high-performance powder-metallurgy steel BÖHLER K390 MICROCLEAN is a reliable solution for your difficult cutting, die-cutting and cold forming operations, and it has a very good track record for applications in the plastics industry. Blade steel is totally a super important factor to consider when buying a knife, but wait a second—it isn’t the be-all, end-all.
Cyberpunk 2077 Melee Weapons, San Clemente Drive In Movie Theater, Aka Japanese Color, Narrow Gate Sermon Illustration, Swedish Slang For Cool, Betty Crocker Gushers, Poop Song Id, E6x 843c Cbr, El Triste Song, şeref Meselesi Netflix, Treasure Hoarder Genshin Impact Farm, ,Sitemap